Jason and the Scorchers Official Home Page (OHP) exclusive.
Interview with Jason Ringenberg and Warner Hodges
Interview by James Benkard. Conducted in the Hard Rock CafÈ, Dallas, TX, October 31, 1996.

Copyright 1996-2001 Jason and the Scorchers Official Home Page

Reporter's note: It is about six o'clock in the evening when I sit down with Jason and Warner in the dining area of the Hard Rock CafÈ in Dallas. Jason and the Scorchers would play a great, loose set that night on the stage where they have just conducted their sound check. Dinner awaits Jason and Warner, but they are gracious enough to talk with the Official Home Page for twenty-five minutes before it. We talk about the new album first, then move back to the start of their career and make a quick overview of the history of this great rock n' roll band. As we proceed, they make key observations about each part of their recorded output. Jason and Warner are friendly, helpful, and hilarious, just as I imagined they would be. For this reporter, it was a dream come true to meet them.

OHP: I want to thank you for the new album. This U.S. leg of the "Clear Impetuous Morning" tour is near its end. Will you be playing any more dates here when you return from Europe?

Jason: Oh, yeah. We intend to play indefinitely, really. We may just have scheduled what we have scheduled, but we'll be playing probably most of next year as well.

OHP: Is it easier or more difficult to tour in 1996 than it was in the eighties?

Jason: In what sort of terms?

Warner: Yeah, I...I mean...

OHP: Just in general.

Jason: Psychologically, or...

OHP: In any way. I mean, is it easier in some ways, or more difficult in others...

Jason: I think it's easier, psychologically, touring, because we're so experienced at it. It's more expensive than it used to be.

Warner: Yeah, quite a bit more expensive than it used to be.

OHP: Okay, "Clear Impetuous Morning" sounds like your finest album. Do you all feel the same way about it?

Warner: I'd put it in there with our best work, yeah. I mean, you know, that's one of those "arguably debatable..." You know, I mean, you get in with a serious fan, and it's kind of hard, but everybody agrees it's up there with our best work. I mean, I'd like to think it's our best record.

Jason: I think it belongs in a league all by itself, really. You know, it's like, is "Fervor" or "Lost and Found" better? I mean, I don't know, you know? You can't really decide. It's a question of taste; they're both great records. And I think "Clear Impetuous Morning" is that same kind of record. It belongs; it's a great record. Now whether you like "Lost and Found" better, or "Clear Impetuous..." better, or "Fervor" better, it's a matter of personal taste, I think.

OHP: Warner...

Warner: Yes?

OHP: (You) and Jeff (co-)produced "Clear Impetuous Morning". This album is very much a product of the nuclear band. Does this self-reliant approach add to your sense of accomplishment?

Warner: For, I mean, for Jeff and I, I think we take a lot of pride in it. It's something, you know, we've always been, like, "associate producers", "assistant producers", pain in the butts to producers, whatever the hell you wanted to call us. And, you know, it was like, we really wanted a chance to actually get to do one. And, you know, I think we proved that we knew what we were doing with this band this time around. I mean, it did help that the songs were great, you know. But Jeff and I feel real proud of the record, 'cause everybody digs it, and it was like, "man, if we blow it, you know, we'll never get to do this again", you know. So...it's cool that everybody really likes the record; the band really likes the record, therefore there is a sense of accomplishment there.

OHP: A related question: was the intention to self-produce the album present from the start?

Warner: In Jeff and my head. I think there was some other impetus for, possibly, outside producers. We just kind of made our point that, you know, now should be our turn, so...

OHP: "Clear Impetuous Morning" is your longest album, and it comes only a year after "A Blazing Grace". Did you all just work very hard on writing "Morning" in the last year, or write some of its songs before 1995?

Jason: Most of them were written in a period between November and February, so it happened pretty quickly. There was a few from the old days that had re-wrote, or whatever, but most of the record was written really quickly.

OHP: There is an urgency to "Morning", as the songs jump out at the listener. "A Blazing Grace" set that urgency in motion last year. Did the years of '90-'92, when you were apart, make you hungrier to communicate something?

Jason: Uh...Hmm.

OHP: I should say, I should have put a 'caveat'...

Jason: No, it's a good question.

OHP: ...before this. I'm going to make some sort of assertions about your music which may be incorrect. And, if I'm incorrect, then please tell me.

Jason: No, no. Music is a funny thing...

Warner: I don't know if you're coming from a songwriting standpoint; I know that period...

OHP: Just from a listener, it appears that you really want...you really want to say something with this album.

Warner: The period we were apart, and then when we finally got back together, made me realize the gift that we had had, and not having that was a real bad thing for me. Getting it back was great; doing "A Blazing Grace" was just kind of nice. We did a record again, we all felt better about the band. "Clear Impetuous Morning" was like, shit, we can do something relevant again, you know. We can push the envelope again. And that was real important, you know. To not just be back together, and be pals, and be playing again, but to do something that was new, and vibrant, that we were excited about again. It was really important for us; or for me, in particular.

OHP: Um, okay. In the world depicted by "Clear Impetuous Morning", society often isn't much help to the individual, and we all can be our own worst enemies as well. "Morning" also paints a world in which circumstances and human weakness combine to create difficulties. The album therefore refuses to use scapegoats to explain away problems. In your opinion, do people want to hear honesty and realism in rock music, or do they listen more to escape temporarily from their problems?

Jason: I think that in the eighties there was a lot of escapism going around. I think that in the nineties people tend to want to face things more head-on. I really tried to do that writing the record. To make no excuses, and, you know, to offer no apologies. Just: here's what happens, and, you know, here it is.

OHP: Despite the doubts and fears on "Morning", there is hope and potential triumph. The otherwise lost and abused Loretta in "Going Nowhere" ends the song: "Holding her redemption/Glad to be alive". "I'm Sticking With You" seems to say that the human spirit can overcome obstacles, with the help of commitment. Is it easier to write about commitment when you are older and wiser? Some of you are married, of course.

Jason: Well, yeah, I don't think you can get into the concepts on "Clear Impetuous Morning", or write a record like that, without having been through most of that stuff. I think it's really important, to have that kind of experience.

OHP: Mammoth Records re-released "Reckless Country Soul", your first recorded output, this year. In '82-'83 you built a reputation as a great live act with some legendary shows. Did you anticipate everything would come together as quickly and as well as it did back then?

Jason: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we pretty much knew we were onto something really fast. Just by the people that were showing up at the shows; you know, in Nashville, we were, you know, already packing clubs four months into the thing. So it never surprised; it never surprised me. I felt like we were a great band right from the start; just always had that fundamental feeling about it.

OHP: Two songs from "Reckless" were recorded on "Fervor", your classic 1983 EP. On your present tour you play many songs from it at each show, and the audiences love them. During the "Fervor" sessions, did you sense what you were doing was destined to be special?

Jason: I think everything in those days we felt was, was, um...if they (we) had any fault in those days, it was, I think, that I probably felt it was maybe stronger than it was at the time, you know. I mean, it really felt like, like we were, you know, 'quote-unquote', to quote our manager Jack Emerson at the time, that we were making history, you know. And I really felt that way. It always felt like this, sort of, everything was important. Every sound check was important. Everything just felt important in those days.

OHP: In 1985, you released "Lost and Found". It contains a full stylistic range, from country to country-rock and rock n' roll. The album was very popular. While recording in the eighties, was it difficult to strike the right balance between what you wanted to play, what the record company preferred, and what the various segments of your audience liked?

Warner: (Whistles.) That was impossible.

Jason: (Laughing.) This guy could...

Warner: I mean, to me, that's where we kind of dropped the ball. Trying to give EMI the radio hit; I mean, you know, the record company's like: "Single! Single! Single! Single!" And, I mean, there's other reasons, i.e. alcohol, drugs, that things happened, but I think we kind of got away from the premise of what Jason, I know I did, got away from what Jason and the Scorchers was all about. "Fervor" and "Lost and Found", we kind of went into it with those records kind of intact. At "Still Standing", it had become a little bit of a different animal. I mean, that, to me, is why "Blazing Grace" is great, and why this one is fabulous. I mean, we made, we tried to do a great "Jason and the Scorchers" record. That was the only impetus, you know.

Jason: It's funny that on "Clear Impetuous Morning", a lot of the songs that we put on there for our own enjoyment have turned out to be...

Warner: People's favorites.

Jason: People's favorites. "I'm Sticking With You", "Jeremy's Legend", "Walking a Vanishing Line". Songs that, frankly, I thought people wouldn't like, you know, have turned out to be their favorites. We did "I'm Sticking With You" frankly because we dug it.

Warner: Oh, yeah, the record company didn't dig the song at all. We had to push that one. Now everybody really 'likes' the song.

OHP: I'd like to jump around a little in your career to ask for your comments on your softer songs, which are often acoustic. "Far Behind", from "Lost and Found", started an interesting trend in your albums. The second to last track was customarily a mellow acoustic song, before the albums ended with a rocker.

[Ed. note: Of Jason and the Scorchers' five full length albums, it appears the only one which does not adhere to this rule is "Still Standing", where the mostly acoustic "Ocean of Doubt" is the third to last song, preceding "Ghost Town" and "Take Me To Your Promised Land".]

I'm interested in whether this is a conscious pattern, but also in whether you think people give you enough credit for your country and acoustic abilities.

Jason: Um...I don't know that it was ever conscious to do that on every record, but now that you've said that, it's the damned truth! (Laughs.)

Warner: Outside of the last one, it is.

Jason: No, the last one is, too. "Jeremy's Legend".

Warner: Well, we ended with two acoustic songs.

Jason: "Jeremy's Legend", and...

Warner: We changed the pattern. We put two of 'em back to back.

Jason: Well, yeah, it depends on how you define "I'm Sticking With You", as "acoustic" or "rock".

Warner: Well, yes, I guess so. Yeah, I look at it, yeah, you're right, you're right...Hell, I never thought about that.

Jason: Well, the second to last song is definitely acoustic, you can say that for sure, on the side.

OHP: Do you think people would pay more attention to your softer songs if you performed them more often, just as it's probably tough for a primarily acoustic band to inspire an audience with fast rock n' roll?

Jason: Yeah, it's hard for this band to do that. But we've went from doing one song like that a night to three, which is, you know...

OHP: 1986's "Still Standing" was also a good album, but the title seemed to refer to internal difficulties within the group. I saw you perform a great show in '86 or '87 in New York. Nevertheless, things were not perfect, right?

Jason: No, I think there was a lot of problems then. I mean, everything was a problem in those days. Problems with musical direction, problems with legal hassles within the band... outside the band, you know, that we were a part of. Record company problems, you know, problems within the-

Warner: Personal problems.

Jason: ...you know, personal problems.

Warner: Alcohol problems.

Jason: It was just all problems, problems, problems! (Laughs.)

Warner: I mean, all your classic bullshit, rock n' roll bullshit, you know.

OHP: The years of '88-'92 were a difficult period for the group. 1989's "Thunder and Fire" has some great songs, such as Jason and Steve Earle's "Bible and a Gun", which is a regular song in your show on this tour.

Jason: Right.

OHP: Yet the tone of the lyrics on "Thunder and Fire" is often bleak. The joyousness of "Reckless Country Soul" seemed temporarily to have been lost. "Thunder and Fire" is a good album, but was it fun making it?

Jason: Uh...there was a lot of energy in the band, because we had a new record company, and a couple of new guys, and stuff, so there was a real energy in it. But...it was a chore to do the record, yeah. It was the height of corporate involvement in our band. You know, down to the minute points of our demos, and stuff, that record company was involved in. So it was always a big chore. And, you know, to their credit, we probably were going in the wrong direction. But, it was a chore, no doubt about it.

OHP: The songs on 1995's "A Blazing Grace" are focused and direct, replacing some of the obliqueness of your earlier work. How smoothly did the sessions for the album proceed?

Jason: I think when they happened, they happened pretty smoothly.

Warner: Yeah.

Jason: We did it like little pieces, and stuff. Like a day here, a day there. 'Cause it was borrowed time, you know, from a friend of ours' studio, at the Castle, Jozef Nuyens.

Warner: I mean, I think that we did the best job-

Jason: Yeah.

Warner: ...that we could, at the time-

Jason: It was pretty fun.

Warner: ...you know, there was no pre-production, I mean, we just, whenever we had a song, we went and recorded it whenever the studio was available. You know, it was really kind of a weird thing.

OHP: "Where Bridges Never Burn" uses the image of a bridge to represent the connections, which are often precarious, between people. Quite a few of your songs contain references to a "bridge", a "highway" or "road"-

Jason: Yeah.

OHP: ...or a "line" with which the individual must negotiate. The characters in your songs are in transition, and often in crisis, when they face these moments. Do you believe we find out who we are when we must reckon with a line, a fork in the road, or a bridge?

Jason: Um...Boy, I wish I'd had dinner now, before this one. Um...

OHP: I'm just talking about the decisions we make in life. The choices that we have to make. And...whether we really find out who we are when we have to make those choices.

Jason: No, I don't think you ever really do find out. I think it's a constant ongoing process of creation. And, you know, I've come to the point that you never get there; you just always create. And the minute you quit creating is when you, you know, start sliding back.

OHP: I'd like to ask you about your live shows. Webster's defines "catharsis" as "the purging of the emotions or relieving of emotional tensions, esp. through a work of art, as of tragedy or music." Your shows seem to carry the following message to the audience: "Let's see what you and us are made of; let's explore what we're all about."

Jason: Great.

OHP: Do you experience the "relieving of emotional tensions" during a performance, and do you think it's possible for an audience to?

Jason: I'll let Warner go first on that one.

Warner: Goddamn, that's great. On a good one, yeah. On a bad one, quite the opposite thing happens-

Jason: Right.

Warner: ...but on a good one, yeah. I mean, it's the only damned reason we're out here. You know, when the...we feed off an audience, and an audience feeds off us, and when that happens, and it goes well- i.e. New York; i.e. Baltimore; different type of animal altogether. But it's the only reason to be in a band. There's no; no other reason. You know, touring, there's just no other reason. There's a whole bunch of bullshit, and the joy of playing that great show. You know...

Jason: It's interesting; Warner brought up the point of, like, it's different every night. And that's very, very accurate. You know, it's like, some nights I go up there; and it just, it does feel like a catharsis, by the end of it. And some nights, I just feel like I've done my job, you know. Like I've done a good job, and I have pride in that work. But an audience member will have that catharsis experience. It's a very strange thing.

They'll come up afterwards and say "That was the best show I've ever seen", or "That's the best Scorcher show I've ever seen". And I'm saying, "Well, it was okay". You know, it's very, it's, wow, it's a fascinating situation. Or even within the band sometimes!

Warner: Yeah.

Jason: One guy will come up and say "That's the best show we've done in weeks". And another guy will say, "Well, it was okay".

Warner: "Yeah, that was okay". Yeah, that's really....we were talking about this Kansas City show that we thought we did an "okay" job at two nights ago. And some old fans that have seen us thirty, forty times thought it was the best show they'd ever seen us do. And, it's like, wow, did, you know, I mean, there was, talking to one guy in particular, it was, like, "damn, was I at the same show"?

You know, I mean, I thought it was "okay". I didn't look at it as, like, "wow, best show we've ever done in Kansas City". You know, and he did, and he's seen a lot of 'em. He's got an opinion, and, you know, I'm glad he felt that way. It made me feel a little better.

OHP: "Broken Whiskey Glass" is perhaps your 'signature statement'. Can you give us some insight into why "Glass" has, ironically, remained so durable?

Jason: That's a good point, and a song that's, you know, got the writer's name in it. You know, you wouldn't think that people would identify with it that much. But, I mean, that and "White Lies" are our two most identifiable songs with the audiences. It's a fascinating thing. I don't have an answer for that, you know.

To me, the song seems so oblique, you know, and so hard to figure out. I didn't even know after writing it what I was really talking about in a lot of that stuff. But, just those lines just jump out and grab people. It's a fascinating song.

OHP: I'm almost done. Pete Townshend was asked in an interview earlier this year what the essence of his rock opera "Tommy" was. He responded that: "I suppose that...it's suffering, whether it's self-inflicted or it comes from outside, leads to spiritual growth". Is this also the "message" or the "lesson" of "Somewhere Within?" What is the role of spiritual belief in your music?

Jason: Well, yeah, that's definitely the message of "Somewhere Within;" without a doubt, you know. And quite a few other songs, it seems like, in our time. No one gets through this life without suffering, you know. No one does. And it's in the suffering that does give you some strength, I guess.

OHP: I'd like to ask if each of you could name one or two influential people or performer(s) who have helped shape your approach to your music. It can be anyone you like.

Jason: All right. Warner, why don't you go first.

Warner: Well, I mean I...one reason why I learned to play guitar: I went and saw AC/DC when I was a kid and went "Damn being a drummer, I want to be out front"! you know.

Jason: (Laughs.)

Warner: I mean; plain up and simple, it was like, "God, who would want to sit in the back"? you know.

Jason: That's great.

Warner: I mean, that's the reason I picked up a guitar.

OHP: Jason?

Jason: Bob Dylan would be my biggest, yeah, biggest reason, biggest person.

OHP: Okay. Just for the record, which is more difficult: hard rock or delicate country?

Warner: (Without hesitation.) Delicate country.

Jason: Yeah, obviously.

OHP: I'd like to thank you all for giving me, and the rest of your fans, so much enjoyment over the years. And I'd especially like to thank you for consenting to do this interview, which will be read and enjoyed by us. We wish you well on your trip to Europe and look forward to your return.

Warner: Thanks, man.

Jason: Thanks, James. Appreciate it.

Warner: Thank you. That was really fun.

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